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May 20, 2005 22:31:42 GMT -5
Post by AnyKey on May 20, 2005 22:31:42 GMT -5
I would like to add that IE, no matter how advanced the GUI gets, will still be second rate to Mozilla. It took them long enough to add tabbed browsing, but that hardly compensates for IE's faulty rendering engine, which skews and distorts even the simplest html. As far as I'm concerned, microsoft is incapable of keeping their browser up to date. FireFox is constantly updated and patched to be compliant with the strictest W3C standards and be as secure as possible. As soon as somebody finds a security hole, hundreds of programmers around the globe work their @$$es off and you recieve an update the next day. IE is far from having any features like this, and even if they did, I seriously doubt they would be able to compete. Programmers seem to write better code when they know other people are watching. They work on Mozilla BECAUSE THEY CARE. At microsoft, however, it's just another cubicle farm where people could care less about the code they write. All that matters to them is getting paid. THIS is why open source is superior to anything large companies can crank out. THIS is also why Microsoft is inferior to Mozilla in the browser war.
*breathes*
Microsoft is getting closer, but they're still just copying off of FireFox. Tabbed browsing is a FireFox thing, and you should not be fooled by cheap imitations. NEVER!
Oh, and I forgot to mention to all of the new webmasters my tips for making pages cross-browser. 1. Use the W3C's HTML and CSS validator 2. Test all of your pages in multiple browsers and try to make them appear the same 3. NEVER use tags supported by only one browser. That is what Microsoft does to lock you into it's grip (aka "The Dark Side") PEOPLE WHO FAIL TO FOLLOW THESE GUIDELINES ARE MORONS AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED! Remember: the main reason people use IE is because people have made pages that only appear correctly in it. ONLY 5% of webpages are valid W3C html or css! If this statistic gets reversed, more people will switch to FireFox! IT IS UP TO US, THE WEBMASTERS TO CHANGE THIS WAR! WE have control over what the web looks like, not Microsoft!
Bad code leads to errors, errors lead to bad pages, and bad pages lead to the dark side. YOU, AND ONLY YOU have control over the fate of the internet! CHOOSE WISELY!
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May 20, 2005 22:32:53 GMT -5
Post by AnyKey on May 20, 2005 22:32:53 GMT -5
I think I now hold the record for the longest post. ;D Sorry if I made you guys think too much.
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May 21, 2005 15:44:41 GMT -5
Post by bfr on May 21, 2005 15:44:41 GMT -5
I think I now hold the record for the longest post. ;D Sorry if I made you guys think too much. No, I think bcherry might have achieved that record. Anyway, IE does some weird stuff to codes, but for a while, it is going to remain popular. Also, where I live, AOL is the big thing.
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May 21, 2005 15:54:53 GMT -5
Post by bcherry on May 21, 2005 15:54:53 GMT -5
Ok, anykey, I'm going to play devil's advocate here and argue for the other side.
First off, its naive to think that Firefox is the end-all and be-all browser. Firefox is great, but its far from perfect.
Also, it's not like the lead firefox developers don't get paid. The mozilla foundation in fact does have money, and does have a payroll. It's not all free work.
Firefox DID NOT invent tabbed browsing. Tabbed browsing has been around much longer than firefox, though I am not sure which browser got it first (either Mozilla or Opera, I believe). We do of course know which one gets it last (ie...).
Microsoft is under a lot of pressure these days. If you want them to produce quality software, stop criticizing every single thing about them. They create the operating system used by 90% of the world. Imagine that pressure, and the amount of work it would take to maintain that OS. Do you think that the open-source community could really hold up 90% of the world's computers? No, because they don't have thousands and thousands of employees to answer phone calls, to watch every single threat, and to meet with government officials and discuss government level computing.
IE has come under a lot of criticism since the release of Firefox, and I guarantee you that they have been working their butts off on IE7. I am disappointed that IE6 has not been fixed much, but I bet that they had to choose between devoting time to fixing IE6, or just putting it all into IE7, and I think that putting it all into IE7 is probably a good idea.
And, furthermore, you may complain about IE not getting CSS right. The truth of the matter is, IE is getting CSS right, and Firefox is getting it wrong, because in today's world 90% of the people who see your site will do so with the "wrong" browser. It is poor design, webmastership, and simply naive to not build websites to look good in IE. Until it's updated, we have no choice.
I'm not saying don't optimize for firefox. By all means, optimize to W3C standards, promote firefox, etc, but that is NO excuse not to build a site that views fine in IE6.
That's all I have to say.
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May 21, 2005 15:55:55 GMT -5
Post by Vladik on May 21, 2005 15:55:55 GMT -5
No, I think bcherry might have achieved that record. Anyway, IE does some weird stuff to codes, but for a while, it is going to remain popular. Also, where I live, AOL is the big thing. Bcerry or me...
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May 21, 2005 21:52:52 GMT -5
Post by AnyKey on May 21, 2005 21:52:52 GMT -5
Well, Ben, I'm not sure how much you use CSS if you claim IE renders it correctly. The horrible truth of the browser war is, what is correct css? Well, I've worked with it for almost a year now, and IE seems to mess up code THAT IS COMPLETELY VALIDATED BY THE W3C. IE has distorted code for long enough that people are starting to think that IT renders css correctly! IE STILL lacks support for Gecko, a CSS rendering engine that is essential for menu's and other cool CSS stuff.
Okay, so Mozilla is isn't completely people working for free, but you still have the power to send them code and write add-ons. Send Microsoft a piece of your code, and they'll either ignore it, or claim rights to it and ignore you. The reason I like FireFox so much is because it's not some big ass company trying to make a buck. They actually care about the browser and donate THEIR free time to it. So, Ben, I think we're even.
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May 21, 2005 22:52:41 GMT -5
Post by bcherry on May 21, 2005 22:52:41 GMT -5
I did not mean that IE renders CSS according to W3C standards, but IE is the standard you should work towards if you want to promote good web design. Make perfectly good W3C CSS that also looks fine in IE, and other browsers, for that matter, and you've written good code. No matter how much the W3C likes your CSS, if it doesnt work in IE, it's wrong. It doesnt help to just tell IE users that their internet is broken and youre not going to do anything to fix that, they just have to deal with mis-displayed pages. Be kind and make your pages work on any browser.
Are you saying that game makers should start making games that use all of the latest technologies, but break on slightly outdated hardware, and complain that the hardware most people use sucks and it needs to be fixed, but that they're not going to do anything to make their games work fine on either hardware?
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May 22, 2005 9:10:30 GMT -5
Post by Pure on May 22, 2005 9:10:30 GMT -5
so you're saying that IE is the bare minimum and if it doesn't work for that, it isn't good enough.
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May 22, 2005 12:42:59 GMT -5
Post by bcherry on May 22, 2005 12:42:59 GMT -5
ie is what everyone uses, and you should play nice and make it work for them if you want to accomplish anything. It's not the users' fault that ie is bad...
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May 22, 2005 14:45:20 GMT -5
Post by Vladik on May 22, 2005 14:45:20 GMT -5
IE is used more, and there are techniques for making code work for all browsers (IE, Firefoz, Netscape, Opera, Safari, and even Mozilla)!
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May 22, 2005 16:23:53 GMT -5
Post by Pure on May 22, 2005 16:23:53 GMT -5
thus making it CROSS-BROWSER code!
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May 22, 2005 18:02:04 GMT -5
Post by AnyKey on May 22, 2005 18:02:04 GMT -5
It's not their fault IE is bad, but it is their fault for using a bad browser. Vladik: Mozilla is the engine FireFox runs on.
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May 22, 2005 18:08:17 GMT -5
Post by Pure on May 22, 2005 18:08:17 GMT -5
no, AnyKey, Mozilla is a browser, too!
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May 22, 2005 20:22:58 GMT -5
Post by bfr on May 22, 2005 20:22:58 GMT -5
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May 22, 2005 22:09:22 GMT -5
Post by bcherry on May 22, 2005 22:09:22 GMT -5
Anykey, Mozilla is a browser and a non-profit organization. The firefox engine is a revamped Netscape called "Gecko" I believe.
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May 23, 2005 12:23:58 GMT -5
Post by AnyKey on May 23, 2005 12:23:58 GMT -5
Okay. Now we are all clear on what means what. I hate AOL especially. I remember seeing something about it sending images to a server for a lossy compression to compensate for AOL's crappy services. The images ended up coming out looking like crap. I'm not very sure if it still does this because everybody here has DSL. I love how AOL sends me those free frisbees in the mail.
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May 23, 2005 17:24:41 GMT -5
Post by Vladik on May 23, 2005 17:24:41 GMT -5
Okay. Now we are all clear on what means what. I hate AOL especially. I remember seeing something about it sending images to a server for a lossy compression to compensate for AOL's crappy services. The images ended up coming out looking like crap. I'm not very sure if it still does this because everybody here has DSL. I love how AOL sends me those free frisbees in the mail. I'm with you 1000%!
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May 23, 2005 19:38:04 GMT -5
Post by Simon on May 23, 2005 19:38:04 GMT -5
Hey guys, I am so sorry that I left you. I just want you to know that its mainly because of me AND NOT BECAUSE OF YOU GUYS you are nice, cool you are understandable, anyway, i left because i dont like calc anymore thats all please, don't answer this post but if people want to know why i left, just show them that ok thank you guys, you were like my brothers
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May 23, 2005 20:48:26 GMT -5
Post by Pure on May 23, 2005 20:48:26 GMT -5
his last post... damn! he broke his perfect 250 post mark!
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May 23, 2005 23:03:35 GMT -5
Post by bcherry on May 23, 2005 23:03:35 GMT -5
well, that was unexpected Hey Simon! Glad to see you again, bye!
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